Sadly we all have some variation of this story to share. That strange disorienting and sickly feeling that what everyone thinks is a joke or backhanded compliment is a form of degradation. Am I over reacting? Why can’t I laugh it off? Are these guys in another situation a danger? Would it be different and would the waiter laugh if a group of women told him he had a nice package?
I think it’s about vulnerability. As a woman, I’m conscious of it in the remarks snd gestures and body language. I know I can be vulnerable. It’s impossible to explain sometimes because women live in a different world than men. The only way it gets better for our daughters is in how we communicate this to our sons.
Oh my, so well said, Janine! You're right - it's our vulnerability that gets us. And the understanding that one is being degraded hurts like hell - you're right.
Those stings stay with us far longer than they should, don't they. It still stings whenever I remember a comment made by my art director at the agency while I was pregnant with Grant. A bunch of us were waiting around to go into a meeting and someone asked me if I was having a boy or a girl. Without missing a beat, the guy said, "Boy or girl? She's such a whore she doesn't even know who the father is." And he laughed. I don't remember much after that, other than, suddenly being at the elevator and my boss, who was there, running after me, saying, "He didn't mean it. He was joking." In the years that have passed, I've thought of many comebacks that I SHOULD have said and didn't. I just had to get out of there as fast as I could because I was ashamed -- when the only person who should have been was him. Thinking about it now, I wish I'd punched him in the face.
Wow, I so get that, Linda. And it makes my blood boil. Us feeling ashamed for those whose behavior was shameless. And others trying to cover for them. All in the name of being good sports. Jesus - I'm so glad that bullshit doesn't fly any more.
The responsibility that you clearly felt to produce a comeback -- a face-saving, cutting, funny, faux-respectful, proud, and un-phased comeback -- in that moment is all part of the BS that the patriarchy imposes. There is NO WAY to come up with the right comeback in those situations -- it's literally impossible -- but the culture makes you feel bad about that, even decades later. Trust me: he is a scumbag and you are fantastic. That's all there is to it.
Ali - thank you for saying that because truthfully, I still feel ashamed and almost couldn't share the story because my reaction made me feel even worse than his comment. Which is exactly what makes moments like that so painful - the shame.
I didn't tell my dad. I didn't tell anyone. I was too mortified to talk about it - even to my friends - mortified because I didn't say anything back to the guy.
I know you. I know your family. And that makes this story more painful, somehow. I wonder how many of those guys at that table, and the guy who made that outrageous comment, had daughters. Would they like their daughters to have endured that kind of comment? Would they like to see their daughter in your place? Or maybe their mother? Not even a possibility. Absolutely, no freaking way. Never. When I hear stories like this, I always wonder how these guys rationalize their behavior. In the extreme, Bill Cosby comes to mind, a father with four daughters. Four! And he RAPED women. The question is, how are some guys able to compartmentalize like that? Is there even a trace of transference? Or are they just stupid? It just boggles the mind.
I think it was easier, in those days, for guys to rationalize that kind of bullshit by telling themselves, and others, that they were just "having fun." Or just kidding. And if you didn't put up with it, you weren't a good sport - and no one likes bad sports.... I don't think any of it would fly now. I hope I'm right. Thanks for reading and for commenting, Jeff.
Wow! Since I hope times have changed, I wonder how you would have responded today if that happened. And hopefully it wouldn’t. Unfortunately most of us have had similar situations…but not as well described as yours!
Thank you, Laura. If it happened today, I like to think I would have said something witty and cutting but am honestly not sure - comments like that leave me dumbfounded more often than I like to admit.
True, at the moment, it is shocking and often tough to respond the way you'd like to respond. After having our second daughter, the agency CEO invited me to his office for something work related. At first he complimented me on my post-baby weight loss and he then became inappropriate about my appearance. Fortunately I quickly told him about my brother-in-law who is an attorney and partner at a good sized law firm in Chicago. The CEO, who already had a few legal entanglements with female employees, apologized right away and said he'd never do that again. And he didn't. And we are still friends.
I remember one day on the subway, sitting next to the door. The train pulled into the station, the doors opened and the man across from me got up, grabbed my breast and exited. Everything went silent. My mind racing to decide if I had caused the incident to happen somehow. I was left sitting there staring at all those who saw it–and laughed. Dying and crying inside. Whether sitting or standing, we are left to pick up the pieces in those stabbing moments. And unfortunately, it still happens today. Another great story Debra. So poignant and beautifully told.
Oh, Jackie - the whole thing - wondering if it was your fault (I wondered if my blouse was too tight) ugh - we all do it - and then we laugh. You said it so well - "dying and crying inside." xx
Such an amazing compliment! Thank you - I'm flattered beyond words. By the way, I recently watched the documentary her son made about her and loved every second of it - watch it if you haven't seen it - it's called Everything Is Copy (or something like that.)
I was moved by your story. At the beginning of your story when you said you liked the bankers, I winced. I've always considered these guys first class asshats and the ending of your story only confir my opinion.. You acted with dignity. You did your job well. To insult the bankers would have been unprofessional. The only thing you could have done was to make a joke, but it's very difficult to come up with a witty comeback in the moment. Let yourself off the hook, Debra.
Well, Gale, your instincts were so right! And your thoughts about how I behaved make me feel better. As we all so often do, I thought of a million things I could have said, when it was too late. And I spent way too much time blaming myself for his disgraceful behavior. Off the hook I go! Thank you, Gale. xx
The laughter that simply shields tears-yup. My heart is bursting every time I read your pieces and get inside your brain, your heart. And bet that denim skirt was the bomb.
Patti, that's exactly it - laughter that shields tears. And makes a boorish comment disappear - or at least, momentarily. I lived in that denim skirt and wish I still had it. Love you. Thank you.
What a good way to put it - "the shame that none of us earned." You're described so well the way that it makes you feel to remember painful incidents. I get it and wish you didn't have to remember them - but let's help each other remember that the shame should not be ours.
Sadly we all have some variation of this story to share. That strange disorienting and sickly feeling that what everyone thinks is a joke or backhanded compliment is a form of degradation. Am I over reacting? Why can’t I laugh it off? Are these guys in another situation a danger? Would it be different and would the waiter laugh if a group of women told him he had a nice package?
I think it’s about vulnerability. As a woman, I’m conscious of it in the remarks snd gestures and body language. I know I can be vulnerable. It’s impossible to explain sometimes because women live in a different world than men. The only way it gets better for our daughters is in how we communicate this to our sons.
Oh my, so well said, Janine! You're right - it's our vulnerability that gets us. And the understanding that one is being degraded hurts like hell - you're right.
Those stings stay with us far longer than they should, don't they. It still stings whenever I remember a comment made by my art director at the agency while I was pregnant with Grant. A bunch of us were waiting around to go into a meeting and someone asked me if I was having a boy or a girl. Without missing a beat, the guy said, "Boy or girl? She's such a whore she doesn't even know who the father is." And he laughed. I don't remember much after that, other than, suddenly being at the elevator and my boss, who was there, running after me, saying, "He didn't mean it. He was joking." In the years that have passed, I've thought of many comebacks that I SHOULD have said and didn't. I just had to get out of there as fast as I could because I was ashamed -- when the only person who should have been was him. Thinking about it now, I wish I'd punched him in the face.
Wow, I so get that, Linda. And it makes my blood boil. Us feeling ashamed for those whose behavior was shameless. And others trying to cover for them. All in the name of being good sports. Jesus - I'm so glad that bullshit doesn't fly any more.
So f*cking enraging.
The responsibility that you clearly felt to produce a comeback -- a face-saving, cutting, funny, faux-respectful, proud, and un-phased comeback -- in that moment is all part of the BS that the patriarchy imposes. There is NO WAY to come up with the right comeback in those situations -- it's literally impossible -- but the culture makes you feel bad about that, even decades later. Trust me: he is a scumbag and you are fantastic. That's all there is to it.
Ali - thank you for saying that because truthfully, I still feel ashamed and almost couldn't share the story because my reaction made me feel even worse than his comment. Which is exactly what makes moments like that so painful - the shame.
Did you tell your dad? I would clobber the guy.
I didn't tell my dad. I didn't tell anyone. I was too mortified to talk about it - even to my friends - mortified because I didn't say anything back to the guy.
I know you. I know your family. And that makes this story more painful, somehow. I wonder how many of those guys at that table, and the guy who made that outrageous comment, had daughters. Would they like their daughters to have endured that kind of comment? Would they like to see their daughter in your place? Or maybe their mother? Not even a possibility. Absolutely, no freaking way. Never. When I hear stories like this, I always wonder how these guys rationalize their behavior. In the extreme, Bill Cosby comes to mind, a father with four daughters. Four! And he RAPED women. The question is, how are some guys able to compartmentalize like that? Is there even a trace of transference? Or are they just stupid? It just boggles the mind.
I think it was easier, in those days, for guys to rationalize that kind of bullshit by telling themselves, and others, that they were just "having fun." Or just kidding. And if you didn't put up with it, you weren't a good sport - and no one likes bad sports.... I don't think any of it would fly now. I hope I'm right. Thanks for reading and for commenting, Jeff.
Wow! Since I hope times have changed, I wonder how you would have responded today if that happened. And hopefully it wouldn’t. Unfortunately most of us have had similar situations…but not as well described as yours!
Thank you, Laura. If it happened today, I like to think I would have said something witty and cutting but am honestly not sure - comments like that leave me dumbfounded more often than I like to admit.
True, at the moment, it is shocking and often tough to respond the way you'd like to respond. After having our second daughter, the agency CEO invited me to his office for something work related. At first he complimented me on my post-baby weight loss and he then became inappropriate about my appearance. Fortunately I quickly told him about my brother-in-law who is an attorney and partner at a good sized law firm in Chicago. The CEO, who already had a few legal entanglements with female employees, apologized right away and said he'd never do that again. And he didn't. And we are still friends.
Oh, Debra...I feel this, and am so sorry this happened to you.
I wish more people would think about the impact of their words. I hope people who read this will.
Thank you, Beth. I hope so too.
I remember one day on the subway, sitting next to the door. The train pulled into the station, the doors opened and the man across from me got up, grabbed my breast and exited. Everything went silent. My mind racing to decide if I had caused the incident to happen somehow. I was left sitting there staring at all those who saw it–and laughed. Dying and crying inside. Whether sitting or standing, we are left to pick up the pieces in those stabbing moments. And unfortunately, it still happens today. Another great story Debra. So poignant and beautifully told.
Oh, Jackie - the whole thing - wondering if it was your fault (I wondered if my blouse was too tight) ugh - we all do it - and then we laugh. You said it so well - "dying and crying inside." xx
Sadly, many of us have stories like this. But we don’t usually say them out loud. Good for you, Debra
we need to talk. there’s more to your stories than just posting. i’m heading home to west palm today. let’s make a date to chat.
Oh, David - I'd love that. Please let me know what's good for you once you get home. xx
I agree with David Cohen. You are our Nora Ephron.
Such an amazing compliment! Thank you - I'm flattered beyond words. By the way, I recently watched the documentary her son made about her and loved every second of it - watch it if you haven't seen it - it's called Everything Is Copy (or something like that.)
I was moved by your story. At the beginning of your story when you said you liked the bankers, I winced. I've always considered these guys first class asshats and the ending of your story only confir my opinion.. You acted with dignity. You did your job well. To insult the bankers would have been unprofessional. The only thing you could have done was to make a joke, but it's very difficult to come up with a witty comeback in the moment. Let yourself off the hook, Debra.
Well, Gale, your instincts were so right! And your thoughts about how I behaved make me feel better. As we all so often do, I thought of a million things I could have said, when it was too late. And I spent way too much time blaming myself for his disgraceful behavior. Off the hook I go! Thank you, Gale. xx
The laughter that simply shields tears-yup. My heart is bursting every time I read your pieces and get inside your brain, your heart. And bet that denim skirt was the bomb.
Patti, that's exactly it - laughter that shields tears. And makes a boorish comment disappear - or at least, momentarily. I lived in that denim skirt and wish I still had it. Love you. Thank you.
honored to be on the mailing/reading list. you’re our Nora Ephron. (i hope that’s a compliment. It’s meant to be.
Oh my god, David! I worship Nora! Thank you! A million thank you's!
it only made you the strong(er) woman you grew up to be ... and to build that shield that bounces off those 'compliments'. bunch of mofos
What a good way to put it - "the shame that none of us earned." You're described so well the way that it makes you feel to remember painful incidents. I get it and wish you didn't have to remember them - but let's help each other remember that the shame should not be ours.